NICE: Carla
Del Ponte did not work as a lawyer but rather like an amateur politician
Jutarnji list
8 December 2007
Interviewer: Augustin Palokaj
Prosecutor Geoffrey Nice who was in charge of the most
important proceedings at the Hague Tribunal, the one against Slobodan
Milosevic, speaks for the first time about the backstage games
surrounding the trial.
You conducted one of the most important trials in the
recent history, the one against Slobodan Milosevic, which is special in
so many ways. How do you feel about this trial ending without a
judgment, i.e. about the indictee dying in the course of the trial
without his guilt being proven?
- It would have been best if the proceedings had been
concluded. I feel disappointed to an extent. After all, it can be said
that the value of the proceedings remains in a large amount of evidence
material left behind, rather than in a specific decision that would have
been passed had the case been concluded. The judges' decisions would
have been the matter of arguing in the appeals proceedings, ant the
final judgment would have been understood differently by people on both
sides and by the generations to come. Some would see Milosevic as a
martyr, and others just the contrary. Although we were not able to give
the closing argument, a large amount of the evidence material that we
presented and which thus became accessible to the public, would not have
been possible without these proceedings.
Three wars encompassed
To what extent did the prolonged trial against
Milosevic contribute to such an outcome?
- The length of the trial was caused by the choice of
the system that may not have been the most suitable for these
proceedings. In principle, it was inability of the accused to be present
in the courtroom for full five days a week that affected the course of
the proceedings. Thus, it seems that the proceedings took too long, but,
in fact, the [length of the] presentation of the Prosecution's evidence,
covering events of three wars during a ten-year period, was equal to
less than one year of regular proceedings in Western courts which would
have full-day sessions. Had it not been for the circumstances
surrounding Milosevic and his health, the trial would have lasted a few
years, which is not too long.
The cross-examination of witnesses (some of whom were
victims themselves) that Milosevic conducted was like their new
victimisation. Was that the appropriate manner for the accused to
question his victims?
- This is a delicate issue that is present in national
legislations as well, for example, when rape victims need to testify in
court, which is difficult. This is necessary since a fair trial needs to
be ensured and both the defence and the accused have the right to
examine witnesses. Milosevic showed too little of his character. He had
a mask in the courtroom that rarely fell off. In the course of
cross-examination, for instance, when a woman testified whose children
were killed before her eyes, it was astonishing that Milosevic showed no
feelings whatsoever for her. Sometimes I asked, on behalf of witnesses
and through judges that we compel Milosevic to show more respect for
such witnesses. I tried [to achieve] that not to make Milosevic look
nice, but because of the witnesses. However, after all, I can say that
Milosevic had a heart of stone. There were witnesses who did not want or
expect any sympathy from him, which was also a frequent occurrence.
Criminal Development
Why didn't the OTP agree to separate the Kosovo
indictment from the indictments for Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina
in order to first pass the judgment for Kosovo? This is what the judges
also suggested.
- This is a big issue. The Trial Chamber really though
that it would be perfectly justified to try the Kosovo part of the
indictment separately. The OTP did not agree with this because this
trial was never about one event, one incident, not even about several
crimes. It was about the process of crime development by politicians. It
was building the case against a politician, who had, according to the
OTP's arguments, become at a certain stage, in the course of ten years,
during important and difficult decisions, the criminal. If we had simply
taken only the final part of this process, which Kosovo was, and if we
had established the state of his mind, this would have been difficult or
impossible without the eight years of what had previously been happening
in Croatia and BiH /Bosnia and Herzegovina/.
If you put on trial that man, who is accountable, then
you absolutely must try him for all three wars. If we are in the pursuit
of the criminal development of that man during one decade, where, then,
is the crux of the matter? Is it Kosovo, as a part of the territory
controlled by Milosevic's apparatus? Is it Croatia and Bosnia and
Herzegovina as internationally recognized states where they intervened
to help those who wanted Serbs to live in one state? I believe that the
crux of the matter in the case against Milosevic was in Bosnia and
Herzegovina where the gravest crimes were committed, regardless of the
gravity of other crimes. Had the case been separated, then the
chronology should have been observed: first the Croatian case, then BiH,
and then Kosovo. In that case, we would first have had the presentation
of evidence first for the earlier cases, and would have understood how
things developed. On the other hand, the separation of the case and,
then, a repeated trial for the Croatian and BiH part of the indictment
would mean, from the point of view of Anglo-Saxon legal system,
prejudice against the accused. Specifically, had he been pronounced
guilty for the crimes committed in Kosovo, which happened several years
after Croatia and Bosnia, this would have called into question the
fairness of the proceedings. This means that the separation of the
proceedings could have been possible only if it had started in a
chronological order, starting with Croatia onwards.
Was it easier to prove Milosevic's accountability for
crimes committed in Kosovo because they took place in the territory
under his control, than the involvement in Croatia and BiH?
- Superficially viewed, it was easier to prove his
accountability for the crimes committed by the forces under his supreme
command in the territory under their control. However, this does not
affect the decision as to which charges you will consider first. Let us
assume that he was very cautious in covering the traces of political
decisions on the use of the military and armed forces in 1998 and 1999.
The military and the police were engaged in Kosovo since 1998 without
declaring the state of emergency, so there are no decisions at the time
with his signature about the deployment of the military and MUP
/Ministry of Internal Affairs/. They even claimed that after 23 March
1999, when they declared the state of war in the territory of the FRY
/Federal Republic of Yugoslavia/, the Supreme Defence Council was not
convened any longer. We had to prove his command role in Kosovo through
his de facto power, specifically in this case, through the ad hoc body
called Joint Command that had no constitutional or government status.
Decisions without My Knowledge
The word is that you were opposed to including
Srebrenica into the indictment against Milosevic because you were not
certain that his connection with the Srebrenica genocide could be
proven. It seems that Florence Hartmann, former OTP spokesperson
criticized you for this in her book. Is this true?
- This is a total nonsense. It is a big unknown to me
why Florence Hartmann could say such things. This is about a simple
chronology that unfolds as follows: in November 2001 I was asked by
Carla Del Ponte to take over the case against Milosevic. At the time the
draft indictment for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Milosevic, was already
prepared by other lawyers and it awaited a judge's confirmation, which
did happen. There were a lot of internal rumours at the time about Carla
Del Ponte requesting that the indictment for Srebrenica and Sarajevo be
issued despite advice to the contrary by other lawyers. My priority at
the time was to take over the indictment that was in place and to
strengthen it by collecting as much evidence as possible. As regards
BiH, especially the Srebrenica case, my opinion, based on my long years
of work, was that the key thing was to obtain minutes from the meetings
of the Supreme Defence Council in Belgrade which would shed light on the
events and probably strengthen evidence against Milosevic and his role
in Srebrenica. Once, at the Office, we found ourselves in the situation
when one attorney tried behind my back to somehow influence Carla Del
Ponte's decisions in regards to Srebrenica and Sarajevo. He sent her a
memo, convened a meeting and all this without my knowledge. I learned
about the meeting and went to it. I saw the memorandum that had never
been showed to me. This means there were a lot of shady deals in the OTP
on whether or not to include Srebrenica and Sarajevo into the Milosevic
indictment. This is all documented, and all these documents are at the
Office.
Information cover-up
What happened next?
- I took control over the situation in the Office. We
had enough time because we were only at the stage of presentation of
evidence in the Kosovo trial. Our approach was in two stages. In the
first everyone was consulted - lawyers, trial attorneys, analysts,
investigators, and others - so that we may obtain every evidence about
Milosevic and his connections with Sarajevo and Srebrenica. There I saw
the obnoxious practice of concealing information and evidence within the
OTP.
Do you think that the associates in the Office hid
evidence from each other?
- Oh yes, this happened all the time. I told them they
would not get away with it and I asked them not to come to me six months
later telling me "O, I've got this piece of evidence". I said that now
was the time and that they should give all the evidence they had. After
that, we made a new assessment and established that we had considerably
more evidence than at the time the indictment was raised.
Following intensive consultations with team members of
various trades and after information we obtained in those months about
the documents that exist in Belgrade, Sarajevo and Srebrenica remained
part of the indictment against Milosevic. It was also clear which
documents we needed to request from Belgrade, and which ones were
necessary to prove [our case] in the court, and I myself did all I could
to obtain them.
What was Carla Del Ponte's position on this?
- On one occasion, during a visit to the Rwanda
Tribunal in Arusha, I spoke to Carla Del Ponte. Based on what she heard
from one of "her spies", as she called persons who conveyed to her what
was going on in the Office, she said that I was allegedly opposed to the
counts of indictment that concern Srebrenica and Sarajevo. She refused
to say who her sources were, but she mentioned Florence Hartmann and
Patrick Lopez-Terres as persons who kept her posted on who did what, be
it true or not; behind their backs, of course.
I told her then what I'm saying now: that all this was
absolutely inaccurate. This was one of the moments when I should have
left the Tribunal because you cannot work as a conscientious prosecutor
in such an important case where you want to make the right decision, in
the circumstances where people take part in such plots behind your back.
Europe does not have a clear conscience when it comes
to Srebrenica. Were there attempts on part of certain states to exert
influence on the work of the Prosecutor's Office, and did they succeed
in it, in their attempts to prevent disclosure of the whole truth about
Srebrenica?
- Yes, there were. Not only was I not ever against
those counts of indictments, but I did whatever was in my power to
ensure evidence in those cases, bearing in mind their graveness, and
complexity of the political and military structures. Right before the
end of the Prosecution case, when the friends of the court (Amici
Curiae) requested that the charges for Srebrenica and Sarajevo be
dropped due to lack of evidence, the arguments of the OTP were
reconstructed according to my personal instructions, and eventually we
persuaded the judges not to drop those counts.
If you look into the response of the Trial Chamber to
the motion of the amici, you will see that we had a unanimous decision
of the Trial Chamber on all counts relating to genocide except for one
that we had sufficient evidence, and for genocide as such, the decision
[of the judges] was 2 to 1. The reason for that was not in that I wanted
those count dismissed, quite the contrary. I insisted that we eventually
attach the statement of an expert witness on genocide, who described the
mechanism used by political leaders and political elites to functionally
employ violence that led into crimes.
Why did you once, in a letter to our papers, accuse
Carla Del Ponte for having made a concession to Belgrade with regard to
come crucial evidence?
- In my opinion, all records of the meetings of the
Supreme Defense Council in Serbia would be crucial. Owing to the
excellent job of my investigators, we gathered some information about
those records. We knew they existed and we knew how to look for them.
Based on my talks with Vladimir Djeric, the then legal advisor to
Minister Svilanovic, I was aware they would request protective measures
for those materials to prevent their disclosure to the public. They
wanted it because of a case that was before the International Court of
Justice at the time (charges pressed by BiH against Serbia).
Protection from the public
Did they want to hide it just from the public, or also
from you?
- They wished they could have hidden it from both the
ICTY and the public. They knew they would lose if they challenged our
motion in which we requested that those documents be made available to
the court. Those documents were so important that they knew they would
not be able to stop our motion for their delivery through the court.
They made several attempts to stall and postpone. They kept saying they
insisted on keeping the documents secret and not disclosed to the public
because of the case tried before the International Court of Justice. I
told Vladimir Djeric right away that there were no legal grounds
whatsoever to withhold the documents. In my opinion, from that moment
on, the official Belgrade focused its efforts on attempts to hide the
documents. At one critical point of time, when we were very close to
getting the documents from the Trial Chamber, Belgrade directly involved
Carla Del Ponte in the game. In a letter to Minister Svilanovic she said
she would not oppose their request for protecting parts of the documents
from public disclosure. At that she never asked either me or any other
member of my team for an expert advice. I was stunned when I heard it. I
wrote her a letter before she had sent her written consent to Minister
Svilanovic, and in it I said her decision was utterly wrong. I wrote to
her that she should not have made that deal. It is all documented and it
still exists. This was happening in April and May 2003. And on top of it
all, she gave her consent for the protection of the parts that she
herself had selected, and not a single one of our investigators has ever
seen all of this material. Only after she had sent the letter, Belgrade
let our investigators have an insight into the documents - in late May
2003 into the minutes, and in August in shorthand records. How does this
fit in the allegation that I did not want Milosevic to be charged for
Srebrenica?
Why did she make that deal? Did she want to get
something from Belgrade, or was it about something else?
- How would I know? The reason could be her
incompetence as a lawyer, or the fact that she was disrespectful of and
confused with legal procedures and proceedings. She was functioning and
acting as an amateur politician and police officer, whose achievements
were measured by her appearance in the media rather than in court. In
this particular case, her instinct to make hasty deals, not founded on
legal and professional arguments, has had serious impacts. She probably
did not expect that to happen, as she was not aware how important all
that was while it was happening. Because, as I said earlier, she did not
seek my professional advice prior to her trips to Belgrade. The people
in Belgrade became very soon aware of her style of work, and used it to
their advantage. Even when I was giving her pieces of advice without her
asking, she would disregard them. What I know for sure is that the
result of her letter and her consent to the protective measures for the
parts selected by Belgrade was that the Trial Chamber consented that
this evidence be blacked out. What is equally unbelievable is that the
ICJ acted on the basis of the documents that were accessible to the
public.
The ICJ did not request, or they could not get those
documents?
- They could have requested them, but they did not.
Let us assume that failure of the ICJ, or Carla Del Ponte to keep away
those documents from the public was a professional error and not an evil
intention. How will it look in 20 or 30 years from now, or when we who
know about those events, are dead? It will look like a political setup,
even if it was not. I do not think it was a political setup, despite the
fact that the Serbs, who couldn't believe how lucky they were, managed
to work it out, and Carla Del Ponte helped them with it, perhaps because
she lacked political understanding.
Had the ICJ had those documents in their possession,
would their ruling have been different, would they have established that
Belgrade had been directly involved in the Srebrenica massacre?
- It would be an irresponsible act on part of all
those who read the documents to claim that someone else would have ruled
differently had they read those documents. However, one thing is certain
- if those documents had been made available in their entirety, there
might have been a better understanding of Serbia's role in the events
that had taken place in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those
documents prove mechanisms according to which things happened and prove
what someone personally said at those meetings of the Supreme Defence
Council on this or that side.
Were there other pieces of evidence about Srebrenica
that were withheld?
- Yes. I will answer this question because you
initiated the discussion about whether I was allegedly against the
counts of indictment for Srebrenica. Florence Hartmann failed to provide
any evidence for those horrible accusations. On one occasion, I learned
about the existence of a taped conversation between Milosevic and Mladic
about Srebrenica and Zepa. There was no doubt that hey had that
conversation and we learned about it. It is very likely that this
recording exists. Have a look at the Netherlands' NIOD report. Al Gore
almost quoted something from that conversation, just as did one
journalist, too. There is much evidence about that conversation.
You spent most of the time at the Tribunal during the
mandate of Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte. She is now leaving. How
would you assess your work with her and her results?
- I cannot state a sort of clear position on whether
she should be given credit for the arrest or extradition of some
indictees. I don't know to what extent it was her achievement and to
what extent it was a result of other circumstances. As regards the
internal operation of the Office, I explained the kinds of problems I
was faced with. However, other problems existed, too, where she acted
more like someone who is told what to do than a jurist who has to adhere
to professional standards. It's as if in a hospital with professional
physicians who are told by someone who is not a physician how they
should do their job. She treated herself as someone who is above any
criticism, infallible, without supervision, because it was known that
there was no control either from New York, even though it is a UN
tribunal. Carla Del Ponte once said to her former deputy that a good
manager is the one who is not liked by his staff. Who knows, perhaps she
succeeded in this.
You said that you kept voicing these objections within
your office. Why did you continue to work with her?
- Of course, you always think about it. Firstly, I
invested a lot of energy and professional effort. I was aware that,
should I leave, others would be even more acquiescent. Looking backward,
now I know when I should have left the Tribunal. On one occasion, I was
asked to deceive the court by deluding an indictee with regard to the
illness of Judge May who was at the time already very ill. I was asked
to complete a part of the Prosecution case before [the information
about] Judge May's illness was disclosed.
You're on your own
Who asked you to do that?
- Carla Del Ponte. She once said that my integrity is
unimportant. She told me that if I am not able to enter the courtroom
and say what she asked me to say, there were other prosecutors who would
do that. I did not want to do that. Hence, within that system at the
Hague Tribunal there was nothing that could improve that system. At
normal courts, you have a system of control, media, the parliament,
attorneys' council and other mechanisms. Here, none of that has existed
and it only resembled the system. I even asked an advice from a Foreign
Office adviser who was involved in the decisions on the establishment of
the ICTY.
I presented the problems to him and he also told me:
You're on your own. Some other lawyers who worked at the Tribunal also
considered the fact that they had families and children at school
thousands of kilometres away. If they returned home, no career awaited
them. Eventually, I won the battle for the integrity of legal
proceedings and for my own professional integrity without any support.
All this has remained recorded and documented.
SHAMEFUL JUDGMENT IN THE HAGUE
Where are the persons who were above [superior to] the
Vukovar Three?
Vukovar was also one of the counts of indictment that
you were trying to prove during the proceedings against Milosevic. What
do you think about the Vukovar Three judgments that many described as
shameful?
It is not my place to comment decisions made by the
judges and which are based on the material available to them. It is true
that Vukovar was part of Milosevic's indictment. However, the Vukovar
Three were some kind of middle level of responsibility. The question
that could be raised is the indicting policy of the Office of the
Prosecutor. Where are the persons, I will not name them here, who were
above the Vukovar Three and why were they not indicted? Therefore, there
was no coherent indicting policy, which could have lead to
unsatisfactory reactions, like the one for the Vukovar Three. This means
that three persons were selected from lower and middle levels, leaving
out the others from the pyramid, and they were indicted for a very
limited case, Ovcara. Thus, a bigger picture was lost about the role of
Vukovar in the entire demarcation plan lead by Milosevic, which resulted
in all the crimes committed in Croatia and Bosnia.
There were attempts by the states to influence
the Tribunal
This means that there were attempts by the countries
to influence the Prosecution?
Yes, yes of course.
Did they succeed?
In the Milosevic case whenever I learned of such
attempts I stopped them. As regards the examples I told you about, for
the mentioned reasons I might not had been successful but I was
successful in other cases. I informed the judge, her deputy David
Tolbert and others, and I warned them about the withdrawal of the motion
requesting transcripts of intercepted conversations between Mladic and
Milosevic. That was interfering with the process that was harmful for
the Prosecution because those documents, if they exist, might have
proven even greater involvement of Milosevic in Srebrenica. However,
they perhaps could have also provided evidence embarrassing for the
West. However, due to the withdrawal of the motion we could not
ascertain whether those conversations even existed let alone their
content.
Indications about the intelligence influence of
the British government's
FLORENCE HARTMANN WRITES NONSENSE
You mentioned the Foreign Office. Were you influenced
by the British Government and did you work according to their
instructions? Florence Hartmann writes about that, too.
That is a complete and utter nonsense. She mentioned
that I had used the MI6 analysts. Military analysts that I mostly worked
with were professionals, from Belgium and Canada. Later on, they were
employed by the ICTY. How could they be in the British service? Besides
she named Azem Vlassi as the source of that claim. He recently denied
this in her presence in a TV show aired on a Sarajevo TV, claiming that
he had stated exactly the opposite. However, she had put in her book
what suited her best.
What does everything you have just stated say about
the Tribunal itself? Milosevic died before the judgment was rendered,
Mladic and Karadzic are not in The Hague and the question is if they
ever will be. What kind of credibility will the ICTY have?
This Tribunal, same as any institution, has its good
and bad sides. When the dust settles I think its image will be better
that it seems right now. There will be a legacy of a huge amount of
materials and evidence that would never have been collected had the
Tribunal not existed. Nevertheless, I believe that the positive part
will come to the forefront in the end. |